ODI no. 2565
The Desired Effect

Comments

Josh Scholar

I made a transcript of the first half (I haven't heard the rest yet):

Interviewer: So many of us in the west, we have a hard time wrapping our minds and, I think, even our hearts around the whole concept that a religious group would hate us so much that they are willing to die to kill us. Yet we hear counter currents in western culture that Islam is a religion of peace, that Jihad is an inner struggle, but your experience is that, no, that is not the case and that from early childhood, you are taught to hate and ... kill.

Nonie: Yes, this is the values we grew up with. I never heard [that] the meaning of Jihad is an inner struggle, except in the West and also after 9/11. But in the middle east the meaning of Jihad was known, to all of us. It starts from birth, practically. It is in every song. I never heard a song about peace. [shakes her head] peace (!) in Arabic; most of the songs were about Jihad and conquering the world for Islam.

And and this is the tragedy, because the Arab people are very warm and kind and good people, but they are being indoctrinated with all of this hatred. And [it's] such a shame because we have to start making peace with the rest of the world, and we are unable to do that with the current way that they teach all of this hatred - pure hate.

Interviewer: I watched the reach of Muslims around the world to 9/11 and with the exception of Malaysia, which condemned the attacks, most of the Muslim countries didn't. And what they tried to do was stop the celebrations in the streets, but that, for whatever reason, went unreported in America, or thinly reported. Why is that? Why can't they come out and say "You've hijacked Islam, this is too extreme, too radical, and we condemn it." Why can't they do that?

Nonie: I think neither the west wanted to show it nor the middle east wanted to show it, but the truth is that after 9/11 I was devastated, because my culture of origin was attacking the country I love and cherish, America. And what happened was that I called a lot of people in Egypt - friends, family, just acquaintances - I wanted know the reaction: each and every one of them condemned me. "How dare you say that this was done by Arabs and Muslims! Don't you know this is a Jewish conspiracy! Have you become so Americanized that you really believe that Arabs are behind this?" And I hung up the phone and I just discovered that I .. I can't believe how reality is not uh clicking at all in my culture, that they are denying the simple truth that 19 Arab and Muslim terrorists did this and they don't want to face what is wrong in their culture that produced all of that. It is such a shame because, how can we resolve this in the Arab world if the first step, which is acknowledging that we are responsible for 9/11 is not even on the table?

I think the reason that Muslims don't always admit that that 9/11 was committed by Muslims is NOT that they don't know the truth, but that they want to show that their sympathies are entirely against "the enemies of God" as they see us. Admitting the truth to someone like Nonie would require them to show sympathy for us. And they refuse to do that.

Nonie's problem was that she was condemning the terrorists. And so her friends, in order to maintain some politeness denied the reality. But if she had called them up and said "isn't it wonderful that we are finally getting our revenge on Satan?" then everyone would have agreed with her that it was the Arabs that did it.

Isaac Schrödinger

You have put in words another layer of Islamic lunacy.

Muslims:
A. Believe that 9/11 was caused by Jews / America.
B. Are happy to see those two Towers fall.

One would think if someone believed A, then they'd be very unhappy about 9/11. (Hey, the infidels just started a war on Muslims!) And if someone believed in B, then they'd be glad for those "magnificent 19". (Praise be to Allah!)

The problem is that many Muslims believe in both A and B. So, when it comes to putting the "blame" for 9/11, it's the conniving Jews and when it comes to giving "credit" for the joy of 9/11, it's the lovely Arabs. I know it doesn't make sense but then we're talking about the mainstream Muslim mindset.

Josh Scholar

So you think I'm wrong that if Nonie had called them up and said "isn't it wonderful that we are finally getting our revenge on Satan?" then everyone would have agreed with her that it was the Arabs that did it?

Certainly those who call Bin Ladin a hero mostly admit that he was part of the attack.

Isaac Schrödinger

I wouldn't say everyone but I bet that a majority would have agreed and laughed about it.

Josh Scholar

So when they're talking to someone who is against Jihad then they believe "A" but when they're talking to someone who is in favor of it they don't believe "A"?

Isaac Schrödinger

You can put it like that, yes.

Josh Scholar

Are you sure you're not being naive? Maybe they never believe it, maybe they just lie.

Isaac Schrödinger

That's possible.

Josh Scholar

I suppose there has to be something interesting going on when everyone lies with such vehemence. I'm trying to understand it as well, it's certainly a common pattern; and I think I see defiance as the common emotion underlying it, but I'm seeing from a distance.

It's not entirely clear to me whether:
a) they always know that they're lying
b) In that culture, many people don't bother to distinguish lie from truth and lack self insight.

I would guess that both patterns are fairly common. I would expect it's the most religious Jihadis (who believe that lying for Jihad is a good deed) and the more intelligent who always know when they are lying.

But honesty just seems to be missing as a value. That's probably because, in my opinion, being honest in that culture is too harmful. I think that because the culture is full of abuse of power, because they lack methods of compromise, and because they value outcome over method (so trying your hardest is never an excuse), the only way left open to solve problems is to lie.

Josh Scholar

And the fact that Islam doesn't make lying a sin the way Christianity does must be the biggest factor. Perhaps someone who knows the culture and religious instruction better than I would could determine that lying is commonly encouraged.

Josh Scholar

Or maybe I'm getting too far from the context. Yes lying is common, but lying about Jihad may be a different kind of lying than the others.

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