Two Converts Quarrel
Mar 13, 2007
Akram's Razor uses an explicitly false title for this post. (Update: He changed the title.)
The first comment by Abu Sinan is, um, amusing:
This guy is the mirror opposite of some converts to Islam. He so badly wants to be American/Western, but he never will be. About time he realises this.
So, a Pakistani-born fellow (regardless of his/her religion) can't be or can't become an American. Okay. Later on:
Like these self hating converts to Islam, he completely misses the point. One can be 100% Muslim and still be American and or European.
How does that jive?
I don't get this self-hating business? If a Christian were to convert to Islam and talk about Christianity in a negative manner, then would that mean that s/he is self-hating? So, one can only truly love the self if one embraces the religion/culture one was born in?
That seems pretty idiotic.
He will someday realise that as a born and bred Pakistani he will never be 100% American or 100% Western. He will never be able to get away from that fact no matter how much he tries.
Of course, I can't let go of my background. Like everyone else, I didn't have a choice of where I was born. So, my Pakistani family and upbringing will always be a part of me.
I actually feel sorry for the guy. It must suck to hate yourself that much. I worry for his mental health and his safety. These types of people often hurt themselves and or kill themselves.
I also worry about my safety. Though, not in the way you think.
Lets pray the guy comes to accept the fact that there is no "inner American" in him and that he is, was and always will be a Pakistani.
Too late for that.
He is like Michael Jackson, whom I dont think can accept he is black. Who knows, maybe they use the same methods to try and become white.
Race and ideology; some people just can't separate the two.
My acceptance and defense of Western Civilization is being compared to ... not enjoying one's skin color.
I feel so hurt.
Well, it seemed appropriate to me given the tenor of the subsequent exchange but I can see how it might be misinterpreted as me implying that you freaked out, which you didn't. So I've changed it from "Isaac Schrödinger: Don't mock the Secular Islamic Summit!" to "Isaac Schrödinger didn't like my Secular Islam Summit post"?
Posted by: svend | Mar 13, 2007 at 05:33 PM
Maybe the confusion about the meaning of "self" in his nonsense "self hating" formula relates to what I wrote about introjection at the end of that other thread.
Perhaps he's introjected the Prophet and can't concieve of himself as an individual. In his own mind he is the prophet.
And he can't imagine a sane mind of a person who has his own identity.
Introjection is also the name of a defense mechanism, which handles threats from the outside that can potentially cause anxiety by infolding them into the internal world of the subject, where they can be neutralized or alleviated. More specifically introjection means incorporating attributes, attitudes or qualities of an absent person of high significance (for example, an absent working mother or a recently deceased relative) into oneself.
Posted by: Josh Scholar | Mar 13, 2007 at 06:31 PM
I wrote a lot more on the subject in that other thread.
The main relevent point relating to the neurosis involved in confusing criticism of Mohammad with a personal insult on Muslim.
Posted by: Josh Scholar | Mar 13, 2007 at 06:34 PM
... and to the introjection involved in automatically hating apostates (hating the way the prophet and supposedly allah hates).
Posted by: Josh Scholar | Mar 13, 2007 at 06:35 PM
Nobody is "100% American" or "100% western". Part of what defines our society is that we're ALL different. Yet we all have (or should have) the same core values. It's our way of thinking, our ideology which defines who we are. That's what these idiots fail to understand. I can just as easily identify with a Brit, and Aussie, an American, or a fellow Canadian, and it doesn't matter if he's white, brown, asian, black, straight, gay, bi, or transgendered, because we all share the same core values. We all believe in freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom of expression. We all believe in government for the people, by the people. We all believe in equality under the law regardless of race, sex, or religion. Those beliefs are what define whether we are "western", or "American", not our skin, our ancestry, or our religion.
Posted by: Alex | Mar 13, 2007 at 07:06 PM
Alex: I couldn't have said it better.
Posted by: Isaac Schrödinger | Mar 13, 2007 at 07:11 PM
I can't really blame people like svend...Quron and hadith are instruction manuals on cognitive and behvior modifications in the most methodical and scientific way...The underlying motivation of koran and the prophet is to extinguish any decision-making behavior,or ability to develop independent thinking; hence total submission is required even the adherents' own sense of right or wrong to what allah rules or deems as right or wrong. Talk about manufacturing consent a la Chomsky. Mohammad et al are masters of mind engineering and behavior modification. The field of cognitive psychology has much to learn from Koran...LOL
Posted by: Red Violin | Mar 13, 2007 at 07:23 PM
I wonder why Abu Sinan is so obsessed with Isaac's ethnicity.
Posted by: Laura(southernxy) | Mar 13, 2007 at 08:37 PM
"I wonder why Abu Sinan is so obsessed with Isaac's ethnicity."
I don't get it either. I've written a lot over the past 2+ years, yet the overwhelming majority of that is not even remarked upon. What often does get picked up is my skin color or my birth-country and then the inane analysis follows.
Posted by: Isaac Schrödinger | Mar 13, 2007 at 09:24 PM
Hi Isaac,
Just to clear up the definition of terms:
"Self hating" (beyond its simplest definition) describes someone who does X in order to deny Y, where Y is an undeniable characteristic of yourself. Thus a self-hating Jew is someone who criticizes Judaism (the religion) or Israel in an attempt to deny his Jewish ethnicity.
If the motive for your conversion out of Islam were an attempt to deny your Pakistani heritage then you would be self-hating.
However if your motive is hatred of Islam (i.e. not an intrinsic part of yourself) then you are not.
Sorry if I am stating the obvious. Sometimes it's necessary...
Posted by: David Boxenhorn | Mar 14, 2007 at 03:44 AM
(The examples given above for "self hating Jew" were not meant to be definitive. Obviously, there are an infinite number of ways to be self-hating.)
Posted by: David Boxenhorn | Mar 14, 2007 at 04:00 AM
"He will someday realise that as a born and bred Pakistani he will never be 100% American or 100% Western. He will never be able to get away from that fact no matter how much he tries."
Isaac's more American than "Abbie" any day of the week in my book. And he doesn't even live here.
Alex: Nicely put.
Posted by: Chris | Mar 15, 2007 at 12:20 AM
So who is the other convert? Is Svend a convert?
Posted by: Josh Scholar | Mar 15, 2007 at 02:27 AM
Oh, I was talking about Abu Sinan.
We're both "converts" in a manner of speaking.
He converted to Islam whereas I converted out.
Posted by: Isaac Schrödinger | Mar 15, 2007 at 02:49 AM
I just found out that Svend is the child of American converts to Sufism. I think that explains why his descriptions of Islam are so damn far from the mainstream. He probably doesn't know much about the mainstream.
Posted by: Josh Scholar | Mar 15, 2007 at 02:53 AM
I'm pretty bored at this point, but I have to note that it's Josh who "doesn't know about the mainstream", much less my background. If you think Sufism is a rarety among Muslims, you really haven't a clue.
And, no, I didn't grow up in a Sufi household (whatever that is).
Posted by: svend | Mar 15, 2007 at 08:35 PM