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2006.11.26

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The Jut

Yes, because muslims who sympathize with terrorism are an insignifically small minority. Hehe. Oh wait, I forgot. Osama is not a terrorist but a freedom fighter, and all the children who died because of him were evil crusaders. It all makes sense now. A twisted ideology leads to a twisted logic. I wonder when the West will wake up? You'd think numerous incident like these would make the PC crowd re-evaluate their principals, atleast a little?

Isaac Schrödinger

"You'd think numerous incident like these would make the PC crowd re-evaluate their principals, atleast a little?"

They don't let small things, like facts, get in the way of their syrupy world.

Josh Scholar

I couldn't quite catch the man's name, by the way. And his letter (the title and date of which can be seen in the video) exists NOWHERE online. Google can't find it by name, and "The Tulsa World" newspaper's web site doesn't archive letters to the editor.

To the topic:

This looks AWFULLY bad!

My impression. from my understanding of Islam, is that the man is breaking a taboo which tells Muslims that God will doom them if they ever take the side of an infidel against Muslims, expecially warriors of Jihad...

I used the word taboo on purpose, because taboos can be fragile - a culture allows a taboo to be broken and eventually there's nothing left of it. Now this attitude, that all non-Muslims are the enemy, and that Muslims must always show solidarity against us is certainly the most destructive, evil and self-destructive attitude possible. Clearly if it were broken down, the damn could burst and it be swept away by the pressure of sanity, of caring for one's own children and people and the natural human empathy that Islam has been trying to destroy...

I think Muslims realize that if Muslim culture loses its hatred, if Muslims join humanity, well that separation itself is the majority of what makes Islam, Islam. What would be left over might be infinitely healthier, their children infinitely happier, but they won't be recognizable as Muslims to their ancestors.

Josh Scholar

One of the methods of of this emnity seems to be that Muslims are never held accountable and infidels must be demonized and blamed 100% of the time. You can't sustain the war on the infidels, if Muslims are allowed to dissent and point out that war is harmful to everyone involved, that warriors are not doing good and your chosen enemies are not demons.

To make principles from the this dishonest discourse, if God hates then you are required to hate. If truth, logic or caring about even your own people suggest that such hatred is distructive then truth, logic, caring and empathy are the enemies too... A Muslim once told me that "logic is a trick from Satan"

Isaac Schrödinger

"If truth, logic or caring about even your own people suggest that such hatred is distructive then truth, logic, caring and empathy are the enemies too."

One of the things that I've tried to show on my blog is that Muslims consider their prophet Muhammad to be infallible. That one wretched man forms the basis of morality for Muslims. Whatever he said or did is right.

Islamic sources themselves reveal that Muhammad was a polygamist, a thief, a slave owner, a Jew-hater and a genocidal monster. Yet, Muslims can't criticize him without incurring harm from Islamic societies. Simple logic and common sense would dictate that following Muhammad leads to a destructive life...but then, as you said, logic is the enemy.

Adil

Mosque to this Muslim chap (paraphrased): "You cannot criticise Islam in front of the Kuffar".

Methinks someone's got self-esteem issues. And it's not this atypical Muslim chap.

Yet this is a very common tactic used by Muslim diehards, especially those in the West, in an effort to get their less religious, and thus more critical, companions in line. It's what organisations like Hizb-ut-Tahrir, to take one example, are quite adept at; their "hostile takeovers" of organisations regarded as way too benign, and thus religiously deficient, including mosques and Islamic community centres, have come to be almost legendary. Don't you dare complain to the authorities, they say, or you'll be regarded as consorting with the kuffar and be punished accordingly, in terms both worldly and non-worldly.

Of course, Islamic doctrine doesn't exactly shatter this interpretation because, well, it supports it. The distinction between muslim and kuffar is one of three issues receiving the most dense elaboration in classical jurisprudence. Deciding that it's better to "collaborate" with the kuffar goes against strong Muslim sensibilities and necessarily requires one's modernity to be more consistent than one's Islam.

Josh Scholar

Anyway, given that my understanding of the way Muslims actually think is correct, that they're essentially fighting to avoid acknowledging that murder of non-Muslims by a Muslim can ever been wrong - then it's important that we call them on this and shame and shun them completely whenever they do this.

Their ancestors agreed to join American society when they became citizens (assuming that they didn't just get born American) ... in any case this is a completely unacceptable betrayal. Americans and Canadians, unlike the entire rest of the world, welcome foreigners with open arms and say, "now you're one of us".

If that hospitality is, for the first time in history, rejected. If the response is, "Well thank you for letting us live near you, but God hates you and you deserve to die" then they should understand that they've failed and that our hospitality is withdrawn.

It's very hard to come up with a fair way to make our acceptance conditional, but we should find a way to shame those who reject us.

These attitudes are evil and it behooves us to understand, expose and destroy them.

I think a willingness to critisize across cultural barriers, to admit that we can understand how people outside of our culture think so well that we can critisize and attempt to reform it is the the ultimate logical conclusion of having abandoned racism. We are all human, all the same, therefor we can understand and change each other.

evariste

The mosque itself enforces this abject conformity, cutting down any stray tall poppies.

Josh Scholar

That's a great essay by Evariste, by the way.

Follow the white rabbit, Neo (ie. Evariste's link).

Isaac Schrödinger

Josh Scholar: I have read the essay before; the author isn't Evariste--it was written by Avenging Apostate, an ex-Muslim of Pakistan descent, who lives in the UAE.

Josh Scholar

Ah, he's in the UAE. No wonder his mosque is so extreme. I imagine that Muslims living in the west would be too afraid to promote such florid hatred. Their children would all end up in jail and their reputation would be so bad that no amount of media sympathy could save them, I suspect.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Josh Scholar

Maybe I'm wrong. After all the topic was a Mosque protecting hatred. But do they really chant, "death to the infidel" (or Jews or Christian etc.) in most American Mosques?

Isaac Schrödinger

Josh Scholar: I've never been in a mosque in North America, so I don't know.

I do think that would make for an excellent journalism report--just what do imams say in the US?

See this post by an American Muslim if you're curious about what subjects the imams don't touch.

evariste

Hey, Joshua! As Isaac points out, I am not the author of that one. I just happened to read the article approximately one minute before landing on this one by Isaac, so I linked to it.

evariste

Mosques in the United States are the same way, I've been in them and they're practically indistinguishable from Arab world mosques, except that the cars parked outside them are much nicer and newer.

Josh Scholar

I wish our news would print reports of what most imams say in every country in the world.

Start with Iran and the rest of the middle east.

Awareness of the state of world Islam would put our own Muslims on the spot as to what they're teaching.

The hate stuff must go way beyond the middle east. It reminds me of a picture I saw of Malaysian women carrying a sign that reads "death to Jews!" I'm sure there are no Jews in Malaysia.

Josh Scholar

Oh, Evariste and I posted at the same time... I hadn't read his last two when I posted mine.

Josh Scholar

By the way, the thread at Pedestrian Infidel seems to be dead, so I'm going to quote from his article here, and make the same request:

You will surely hear words like ‘May Allah destroy the infidels and give their possessions to us’, especially on Fridays. I've heard such things many times in a mosque, more times than I can count. In some parts of the world that prayer is actually written on the front wall of the mosque.

Please, someone take a picture of that prayer on the front of a mosque and send it to me at CafeAlpha

Thank you!

By the way, the reason I want such a picture is to make a tee shirt and perhaps poster with the picture and a translation!

Josh Scholar

The funny thing about that last link is that there's one commentor on the thread who's posting extreme lies and exaggurations about Islam (along with racist epithets).

There's always someone muddying the waters.

Josh Scholar

And I said funny, not because racism is funny, but because it's hard to think up extreme lies and exaggurations. What's actually there is so extreme.

That's what I started out to say, but then I noticed the racism and rewrote the end of that sentence.\

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