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2006.01.10

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AbbaGav

Hi Isaac, just wanted you to know that this is a tremendous post, and that I've linked to it. I tried to send a trackback, but it got rejected twice (something about preventing comment spam by making me wait, but it never got past that).

Anyway, well done. How did you stay sane?

Isaac Schrödinger

Typepad has been having on-going problems with trackback. I often find myself using the Wizbang Trackback Pinger. Its use takes a few more seconds but it works most of the time.

"How do you stay sane?"

The nightmare is over for me, and I use this opportunity to show the world (read: my tiny blog audience) what the Islamic life is really like. I can't change the past but I can certainly try to open enough eyes so that we not only rhetorically oppose such madness but stop it all together. It burns me to think that most of these cruel teachers are still there, torturing a new generation.

It's going to be a tough generational change since most of the Muslim kids of today are going to go on and treat their children in the same manner.

This really is the ugly face of Muslim society. Most Muslims at a young age don't learn the Arabic Quran cheerfully; the error-free version is beaten into them. The least I can do is write about it.

John Sobieski

If I did not speak Arabic, and was told to memorize the Quran in Arabic, I don't think I could do it. To memorize an endless set of pronunciations by some symbol you cannot relate to. That would be so hard.

What a waste of life Islam makes of youths.

triLcat

Thank you for sharing this. It's absolutely terrible.
I thought I had it bad when I lived in Oklahoma and public schools had corporal punishment (they don't anymore.)

bayan

Well, I agree with you. It is the ‘mode’ of teaching in most schools in here. But you are doing an enormous mistake; you are mixing Islam with Muslims which are, unfortunately, two very different things nowadays. It is not Islam’s fault, it is Muslims’ fault. It is enough to know that the prophet Muhammad had never ever hit a child through all his life. And it is enough to know that what the most modern widespread science (NLP and its related fields) are all teaching what the prophet Muhammad taught and encouraged by his behavior 1426 years ago!!

david Murray

Bayan,I'm afraid that I probably know more about Islam than you do and I'm an atheist and that's because the " teaching" you have received will have condemned you to the certainty of unreason and it is very diificult to escape. The Prophet may not have been recorded as having struck children but he had other uses for them which,as he is al-insan al -kamil(the best of men whose example has to be as relevent today as it was in his times)
Sahi Bukhari Vol 7 Book 62 number 64
Narrated Aisha: "that the Prohet married her when she was 6 years old and consumated the marriage when she was 9......."

bayan

Sorry to tell you David that you know nothing about Islam, except maybe very little things. You are taking things out of context and posting them. Of course if you tell someone that this man Muhammad married a 9 year old kid, then this would look bad. But you should also consider that it was a custom back at their time to get married early in age. And it was considered normal. Men were used to get married to 8 or 9 year old “WOMEN”. Because at this age Aisha was not a 9 year-old kid, she was a 9 year-old woman. How come?? Maybe because of the climate? Or because that was -simply- their nature!! It was normal back then just as it is not normal now and might get back to normal some 50 or 5000 years to come, that is it. The biggest proof that Prophet Muhammad didn’t marry her as a kid is that he was never accused of abusing children by his worst enemies. Do you think that if this was the case then those enemies would not take advantage of it in the best possible way? But no, they accused him of being a liar, a magician, but he was never accused of maltreating children. Soo please drop this point and search for something else.
And yes he is one of the ‘best of men’ along with other 4 prophets including Adam and Jesus.

By the way, the most important thing I love about Islam is that everything does make sense

David Murray

Bayan, thank you for your reply. Perhaps I should have made myself clearer.You are quite right, and I would be the first to agree with you, that how things were done a long time ago might have been right and proper for the prevailing circumstances. It could be, for example, that the sooner women had children in a society where death was much earlier than now was biologically sensible. Despite that fact, Islamic texts suggest that Aisha was 9 when the Prophet had sex with her and was still playing with dolls and there is no evidence that puberty was reached at an earlier age. The point I'm making, which you indicate would look 'bad' is this: because the example of the Prophet is a 'perfect' example, is is acceptable for men to have sexual intercourse with pre-pubesent or pubescent girls? You may know that Ayatollah Khomeini reduced the marriagable age in Iran for just this reason. By the way, there is the horrible propect of the foul theocrats in that noble land hanging a teenage girl from a crane because she had the temerity to defend herself against rape. As they say in my cultural religion,
"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do"

bayan

I have not heard of Aisha saying that she was playing with dolls when the prophet married her, so please tell me how did you know that? And even if so then what is the big deal?? I play with dolls and all kinds of kids’ games and I am an adult, so this is not a problem or a proof. And yes probably there is no tangible evidence that there was puberty. But but but, the life of the prophet would indicate that he would not marry a girl who hadn’t reached puberty, for he is the one who was always ordering Muslims to take care of women and treat them in a kind and tender way.
If Aisha was not a mature woman when the prophet (peace be upon him) married her, then this would have become a custom and a habit even now, this would be normal no matter whether this wife is a mature woman or simply a little girl. And this is not the case right now in the Muslim countries. if some one decided to reduce the marriageable age in any country, then it is their own problem and the peoples’ problem. This does not make it the fault of Islam for there is no direct Hadith telling Muslim to marry immature girls.
About the Iranian girl Nazanin, well I feel sorry for her. Hanging her for defending her self is not fair in any religion, and definitely not in Islam. And if a bearded man, a religious man sentenced her to death this does not make it in the name of Islam; it is in the name of their stupidity and narrow minds. But I actually doubt the whole story for we’ve read about it in the web and we have heard from only one side, we should also try to hear from the court's point of view, maybe there were other details about the case that were not revealed and discussed in the web, maybe. But if what is said in the web is true, then this court and this judge is corrupt and should be put in jail. and personally i won't ask God to forgive them FOR they know what they are doing.This is my opinion.

as I’ve said earlier, don’t mix Islam with Muslims for they are not the same, unfortunately

David Murray

But Bayan, he did marry a girl who had not reached puberty.I thought we were agreed on that ? Aisha was 6. Hadiths: Aisha said " I used to play with my dolls in the presence of the Prophet. I also had other little girls as my friends who would play with me. (MISHKAT Vol 2 p. 99)
Aisha said " She was 9 years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her."(same source)
Once again, I'm not trying to imply that the Prophet was unkind to Aisha, he clearly loved her dearly, but am trying to get you to agree that what happened then is not appropriate today. To do that you have to agree that the Qur'an is not the unchangable word of God . In other words Islam needs a Reformation so that it can enter the modern rational world. The tone of your posts would suggest that you are by nature a kind person and that your idea of Islam is tempered by that, but you cannot separate Muslims from the religeon.The fundamentals of Islam are that it is an aggressive faith that calls for hatred of all those that deny its pieties. A "fundamentalist" Christian would be forced to love his enemies, Muslim fundamentalists commit atrocities on a daily basis, targeting children(Beslan), and using children as weapons(Palestinians).

bayan

No, we did not agree on that. I said that maybe there is no tangible evidence that would prove the marriage was before or after puberty. But I’ve changed my mind for I’ve been doing some reading.
Aishas said: ‘if the girt reaches 9, then she is a woman’. (Of course talking about her own time). So, the one who the west is soooooooo busy defending her does not need your defense. This is the proof that she DID reach puberty, and that is why the prophet waited three years when he really didn’t have to, right?
Of course I agree with you that marriage at this age nowadays is not appropriate. And I am totally against it. Funny though, I’ve heard a few months (or maybe years!!) ago that a girl and a boy got married in India. the boy was , probably, 6 and the girl 5 or 4, there were even picture of this marriage. And they were not Muslims by the way.
In saying this, I am not saying that the Koran or the Sunna has changed because there is no direct verse or Hadith saying: ‘you should get married in the age of 9, if you don’t you will burn in the hellfire for even and ever’. There is no such thing!!!!!!
And once again, Islam is rational.
Actually Islam did temper my ideas and not the opposite.
Do you think that over one billion Muslims believe in hatred and are committing atrocities on daily basis? Then I think the whole world, the whole humanity must be extinct by now, for the Muslims have killed all the non-Muslims!!! This is non-sense!! You are generalizing, and this is wrong.
I have seen lots of very evil and bad Christians; does this make Christianity a bad religion? And thanks for the Zionists; shall I say that all Jews are murderers? Of course if I am ignorant or stupid I might say so!!
As far as what you said about Beslan, you tend to forget what the Russians did and still do to Muslims in Chechnya, they committed massacres. Human Rights Watch (21/3/2005) demanded an international response against Moscow for the ‘crimes against humanity’ they are committing in Chechnya.
So we are talking here about desperate people who had probably lost a member of their family or their whole family, of course, thanks to the Russians. But this does not give them the right to kill innocents in their way trying to gain their freedom. you definitely did not see that more that 40.000 Muslims demonstrated in 20 Russian cities against what happened in Beslan.
Innocents are being killed every day in Iraq (under the label ‘freedom for Iraq’), Afghanistan and Palestine. But…. Who cares? And how come that children are used as weapons in Palestine? As far as I know, children are being targeted by Israelis and killed in cold blood. Try to see other news channels. You are definitely seeing what they want you to see only!

David Murray

Bayan, Jews have been subjected to far worse atrocities than the Chechnyans throughout their history and yet in all that time have never risen against their oppressors and matched their barbarity.What understanding of God do the warriors of Islam have that allows them to delight in the cold blooded murder of captive infants? Why should perceived injustice lead to cutting the throats of captives on video whilst calling out the praise of God and why should this be be the province of Muslims and not Christians or Jews? Could it be that Judeo-Christian ideology asserts the power of love whilst Islam incites to vengeance and death? What outrageous confusion leads you to suppose that Israelis deliberatly target children?This is a nation that is crippled by its desire to do the right thing whilst surrounded by people whose whole life is dedicated to doing the wrong.200,000 Jews took to the streets when news of the massacre of the Palestinian enemy in Sabra and Shatilla broke and Sharon was dismissed for not realising that Arabs, even though they are nominally Christian, are likely to behave as their culture dictates, with dreadful cruelty. Palestinians should thank their God whether He exists or not that the Israelis don't abandon their moral imperatives and visit upon their enemies the wrath they deserve. If Israel had behaved like the Palestinians have behaved, and as the Iranians hope to behave, then there would be few Palestinians left.I fear a calamity in the ME and it may spell the end of Israel but in her dying she will undoubtably take with her all her enemies and all they hold dear.Apocalypse Now?

bayan

Yeah, Sharon was dismissed, then after a few years he came back as a prime minister!!! Of course to continue his efforts to bring peace to his nation!! Palestine is not the nation of the Israelis; it belongs to the Palestinians. The Israelis are soo gentle, when the burnt al-Aksaa mosque they were doing it for the good. When they killed Muslims who were praying in the mosque they were good. When they killed the American woman who stood in front of thier tank and crushed her bones they were good. When they killed Muhammad al-Duraa in his father’s lap they were good(some 10 or so years old). When they killed Iman (an infant) they were good. When they prevent a pregnant mother, who is giving birth to her child, to go to the hospital and force her to give birth on the side of the road they were good. When they entered Geneen camp a few years ago and destroyed it completely they were good. When they came to Palestine some 50 years ago and kicked the Palestinians out of their own homes and killed their families and made them homeless and poor, they simply didn’t mean it, they only wanted to have their right to have a home and a nation!! Come on, open your eyes, try to see the other side of the truth. You know the reason for all this terrorism?? It is Palestine. Give Palestine back to Palestinians and to Arabs and the problem is solved. Every action must have a reaction, and this reaction differs from one person to the other. This discussion can go forever. Soo, The bottom line is, personally, if someone told me that a given religion is bad, that this religion teaches its followers hatred and terrorism. If I am truly seeking the truth from the bottom of my heart, you know what would I do? First of all, I would learn their language, then I would read their holy book if they have one. I would read it MY self and I would read the explanation of it MY self. I would not take any one’s views for granted. Then I would read every single book I could put my hands on regarding this religion. I would read the for and the against. Then finally, I would leave it for my heart to decide. Because I know that everyone of us knows the truth very deep inside his\her heart. If one listens to his heart, he will know the truth and he WILL see the light.

David Murray

Sorry Bayan,but we have reached the end of of our discussions.Your idea of truth and mine conflict and whilst I am prepared to be proved wrong you are not. "It is impossible to reason something out of someone if it wasn't reaoned into them." The truth for you is what you choose it to be. The truth for me is what it really is even if that is discomforting to my pride.You make the assumption that I have never read the Qur'an when it is sitting in front of me on my desk and I have read it many times(in english I have to add.I haven't the time to learn medieval Arabic which very few Muslims do as you know. The majority learn it by rote and the rod which was the point of this thread.) Your view of the world is coloured by propaganda whilst my interest is in the nature of that fascinating dark art.You won't believe it I fear but Mohammed Al-Durah was not shot by the Israelis but on what is known as a "Pallywood" set .You can see him peeping out to see if he can get up long after he was declared dead by the Arab commentator, you can see the director's 'take two' sign in the rushes and you can see that there was absolutly no blood on the ground until it was put there later in the wrong spot.Would you like to see a film of 'corpses' falling off their mourner's shoulders and leaping back on (with a predictably terrifying effect on the onlookers) after the 'massacre' at Jenin which wasn't a massacre?We cannot talk any more because I cannot reason with you because you don't understand the nature of rational enqiry and thein lies the essence of the conflict which is set to tear the world apart. Modernity with all its faults and a backward Religion that is condemned to the Middle Ages.

bayan

I have done my best. It is now up to you! But I have to tell you that the Arabic of the Koran is not a medieval Arabic and it is understood by all people who are able to speak average Arabic, except maybe for very very few words.

Though, I would LOVE to see those films you talked about.

David Murray

Bayan, Go to www.seconddraft.org or Google "seconddraft" and you should be able to see both films.The "dead" body coming back to life must have been taken by a unmanned plane using night vision.

David Murray

Bayan, Go to www.seconddraft.org or Google "seconddraft" and you should be able to see both films.The "dead" body coming back to life must have been taken by a unmanned plane using night vision.

bayan

Well, what can I say? I don’t know. You have your own version of the truth and I have mine, some day the true version will come up… probably not in my life time, but in someone’s life!! No one can hide the truth forever.
It has been pleasure having this discussion with you and sorry if I said any thing that bothered you. And if I did, know that I didn’t intend it.
It is good that you’ve read the Koran…. You’ve been seeing the non-Muslims and the ex-Muslims points of view. So, if – someday- you wanted to see a Muslim point of view, a person who loves Islam and is fully convinced in this religion one million per cent, you can have my email and ask me anything! It’s been nice talking to you Mr. David:)
Bye

David Murray

Bye Bayan, with Muslims like you we will be safe.Peace be upon you.

David Murray

Bye, Bayan. Peace be upon you .David.

Steven

Thanks for the post, and also the comments, they were just as valuable.

Nylus

Hello Bayan.

Are you still out there? Your discussion with David was most illuminating.

You neglected to leave your email address. I have some questions for you about Islam, if you don't mind.

Please reply.

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